I’ve been remembering how exhausting election years always are. I could never survive being an actual candidate; just watching from the sidelines wears me out.
My memories of presidential debates do go back to Kennedy-Nixon, although I don’t remember that debate itself so much as I remember my father glumly predicting that Kennedy would win the election. Dad was a loyal Republican who died in 1999, and the last time I saw him he told me he was glad he wouldn’t be around for the 2000 election. Politics upset him so. Given the Florida 2000 debacle and 9/11, it may have been for the best he was gone.
There wasn’t another debate until 1976, when Ford and Carter debated. When Ford said “There is no Soviet domination of Eastern Europe and there never will be under a Ford administration,” I remembered thinking, holy crow, he just lost the election. And he did. But the thing with that election is that the two candidates were so much alike people were reduced to flipping coins, and one good gaffe stood out sharply. It gave people something to choose by other than heads or tails.
People remember that the Reagan-Carter 2000 election was close until the debate just before the election, and then it was a blowout for Reagan. Recently I’ve read in several places that the “internal” polls already had Reagan ahead before the debates. Nate Silver’s chart shows that Reagan actually got only a 2.8 percent net polling gain, but that was enough. However, as I said, that debate was right before the election, so Reagan’s post-debate bounce peaked on election day.
At the Los Angeles Times, James Rainey reminds us that John Kerry really did mop the floor with George W. Bush in their first debate in 2004, and see how it turned the election around? Oh, wait …
In the debates since 1976, what people seem to remember most were gaffes and “zingers,” like “there you go again.” What gaffes and/or zingers do you remember from last night? I can’t think of one. This may explain the President’s caution — he was determined to not give Mitt’s people something they could blow up and use as a club to beat him with. And I honestly don’t think he gave them that.
On the other hand, Mitt’s arguments were so riddled with lies and contradictions that it should give the Obama campaign plenty of fuel for several good campaign ads. Unfortunately, the ads will consist of bringing up the points the President should have, but didn’t. And the media shouldn’t let Romney win the debate on well-told lies, but they probably will.
A big part of the problem with last night’s debate was Jim Lehrer. He was not there. Usually there is a panel of questioners who challenge the candidates, and Lehrer just sat there like a giant marshmallow. I trust the rest of the debates will be different. This one will just have to be water under the bridge.
I expect the race will tighten up in the next few days, and a few states that were solid blue yesterday may turn light blue or even pink. If only for my own sanity I would prefer that Obama just get way out in front and stay there. We won’t know for sure how much the debates “moved the needle” until early next week. And mistermix thinks Romney screwed himself badly on the Medicare question. So, we’ll see.
Update: First post-debate Obama video. What do you think?
Talk about snatching defeat from the jaws of victory!
If the President loses, he has no one but himself and his performance to blame.
Not only did he let Mitt get back in the game, he gave the MSM 4+ weeks of horse race bullshit to jircle-cerk one another off to.
And where were Obama’s balls?
Was he keeping them warm and safe at home, ready to go back, put them on, and have some sexy-time with Michelle on their 20th Anniversary?
I hope she made him sleep on the couch last night!
And told him this morning, “No more nookie ’til you put your balls back on and beat that Lyin’ SOB Mitt over the head with them in the next debate!
Oh, and you’d better hope you win on November 6th, My Dear Wimpy Obambi, because you know that couch?
We’re going to build a Monk’s cell around it, and you can spend the rest of your life being Saint Francis of No Ass-see!”
Also too – Last night, I kept waiting for Obama to look at his watch – either to check how much time there was left in this farce, or to see if Jim Lehrer still had a pulse.
Obama was bored with the whole affair.
It’s almost like he expected the audience to grok that Mitt was lying through his teeth, without having to say anything to counter the endless tsunami of bullsh*t.
And Mitt had the madman’s glassy-eyed but focused glare and machine gun patter of a Wall Street boss who’d just snorted an 8-ball of coke and drank a bottle of tequila at midnight in his office and wanted to lecture about free markets to the over-night cleaning crew at his firm.
I hope they took him to some local Denver Emergency Room to get some Keith Richards treatment of getting fresh blood transfusion from a virgin Mormon – after all, that ER visit will still be covered under Mitt’s health care plan, so he won’t have to tap into his Swiss or Cayman’s accounts to cover it.
I didn’t watch it, and so I slept very soundly, my mind far away from politics. FWIW then,
It seems like Obama suffered from (among other things), not having debated in a long time, whereas Romney had a lot of practice during the GOP primaries.
It seems like a really dumb (and boring) format to have just one moderator.
And Mitt had the madman’s glassy-eyed but focused glare and machine gun patter of a Wall Street boss who’d just snorted an 8-ball of coke and drank a bottle of tequila at midnight in his office and wanted to lecture about free markets to the over-night cleaning crew at his firm.
I hope he appeared as crazed as he sounds.
I was pleased that the Nice Polite Republican radio fact-check this morning pretty much said Mitt was wrong and Obama was right on everything, and managed to resist ‘balancing’ too much, but I’d have preferred if Obama had come with a different stance and made all those points.
Instead of a ‘zinger’ being memorable, I think the take-away meme is Big Bird being fired. The version I’m spreading is – “Mitt says he’s all about creating jobs, but that doesn’t apply to big yellow birds.”
moonbat,
Think Mormon lion v. Black Christian.
Mitt lied, smiled, lied, smirked, lied, snarled, and lied again, the whole debate, while Obama played “Rope-a-Dope.”
The only thing he forgot, was to punch back, so all Obama took was hits.
Ok, maybe I’m exagerrating.
But not too much…
Do you know where I can get a list of the lies and contadictions? Before I heard the critics I thought President Obama won by a mile. I still do.
I thought President Obama won by a mile. I still do.
I agree with you, Ed…Sometimes it’s hard to see things through the natural.
It’s probably giving Obama too much credit to think there must have been some kind of brilliant strategy behind his performance, but on the other hand he’s shown that he can be pretty crafty. He must have had some kind of strategy going into the debate, even if it wasn’t a very good one.
So I don’t know, maybe the idea was to state the facts, draw a clear distinction between the two candidates, and otherwise basically ignore Mitt Romney. Which basically amounts to letting him have the debate, and looking kind of weak and disengaged, but there can be advantages to putting the spotlight on Romney. For one thing, I think your point about what each candidate is giving the other side to work with is an important one. Beyond being a live event, the debate is a huge source of raw material. And Romney did supply a whole bunch of new footage that can be used in Romney vs. Romney ads.
And, too, one thing that keeps going through my head is, OK, sure, Romney looked confident and in control, but this is the exact some voice that we’ve all heard very confidently writing off half the nation as parasites.
But yeah, I was disappointed, though not terribly alarmed.
Of course, I already know I’m going to vote for Obama and every other Democrat I can find on the ballot, so the debate isn’t for me. That makes it really hard to evaluate. The only question that really matters is whether the debate will influence the election, and to answer that question you have to look at the people who are going to vote but still aren’t sure who they’re going to vote for. Which is a completely alien mindset to me, so I don’t know.
Just a little question from a foreign country: Romney kept banging on about the $700 million that “Obamacare” was going to steal from ??? (sorry, I’m not following your elections with laser-like focus). Isn’t that just an all-out lie? And if so, why didn’t President Obama, in his polite and courtly way, say, “Excuse me, Governor Romney, but that’s not quite accurate,” and then go on to tell the truth about this money? Sorry about this vagueness…
I was too upset at how limp Obama seemed to actually be able to sit and watch the debate so I listened while on my computer in another room.
I don’t believe in “go for the jugular” politics, but just listening to the tone of their voices, it sounded to me like Romney was eating Obama alive while Obama did little to fight back. Please tell me I’m wrong!
When you find yourself begging for access to health care, you can console yourself with knowledge that we’re “second to none”.
Romney says doctors won’t accept lower Medicare payments. You’d be surprised how arrogance and greed can be tempered by the necessity to survive.
Canadian Reader, I don’t believe you’re wrong. Very sorry to say.
From the debate excerpts I’ve heard, it sounds like the GOP has brought out the Mark 2 Mittens droid. Completely different from the “World Tour” and “47%” droid that was constantly malfunctioning. This new one tells lies like a pro.
But the lies came shining through.. that’s were the victory occured. Not on the surface.
Obama made me think of a tired, distracted, bored, hung-over professor just trying to get through a lecture before going home and taking a nap.
“I thought President Obama won by a mile. I still do.”
“I agree with you, Ed…Sometimes it’s hard to see things through the natural.”
I’d call it a substantial draw. The way these things are set up it’s almost impossible for the incumbent to win, short of a major gaffe by the challenger. These things are media creations, they are designed to gin up interest and even things up, make it more interesting for the soap sellers. Many seem to think the president gave away the election last night, laughable, typical over-reaction by liberal hand-wringers many of whom were prematurely predicting re-election. I’ll admit the president lack some fire in the belly last night but all is not lost. I would give Romney the clear victory in the debate except for one thing: all he did was lie through his teeth!
Didn’t watch and don’t plan to watch future ones. It is the only way to maintain my sanity. My county votes by absentee ballot only. The ballots are supposed to be mailed and arriving around October 19. Then, we drop them off at ballot boxes to be found throughout the county. I’m sure we will be accused of voter fraud somehow.
From Dialy Kos:
“JON SCOTT, FOX NEWS: You don’t think there will be a better prepared President Obama on stage next week?
JOHN SUNUNU, ROMNEY CAMPAIGN: When you’re not that bright, you can’t get better prepared.”
“Speaking of “not that bright,” Sununu wasn’t content with bulletin board material he gave the Obama campaign on Fox. Minutes later, he appeared on MSNBC and called President Obama “lazy,” “disengaged,” and “incompetent.”
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/10/04/1140058/-Romney-campaign-says-Obama-will-lose-next-debate-because-he-s-not-that-bright
“…no that bright…,” “…lazy… incompetent…”
Not only is that an appropriate description of Sunununothingnewnunu, but the next time this racist motherfeckin’ @$$hole appears on FOX, I hope he’s wearing a “Columbian Necktie.” That might be the first time his tongue will have been ever been put to good use.
But then, they don’t put dead people on TV at FOX, only brain-dead people.
What a waste of Oxygen!
On the plus side, he won’t be using up the precious supply too much longer, by the looks of him.
For myself, I’m not going to say whether this was a win, lose, or draw until about two weeks from now. President Obama has always been willing to take hits in the short term so that he has a long term advantage. Whether or not that was what he was doing last night I have no idea … yet. But I think given his general style, condemnation of his performance at this stage is way, way premature. It’s entirely possible that last night was just setting Mitt up so that Obama can hit him harder later. Or, could be Obama was just off his game. Course, option two there doesn’t preclude using it in retrospect to hit Mitt harder later … I dunno, we’ll see.
However, breathless speculation on whether or not this has lost him the election is just chicken littleism at its worst, I think. Historically, debates have not had the power to move the needle anywhere near as far as Mitt needs the needle to be moved.
-Ian
A rope a dope?
I don’t have an accountant..I just use a 1040A..It sure beats the hell out of having to file a 300 page tax return.
I agree that Romney won the debate – but I think Maha may have hit it on the head.
Yesterday, I was asking myself “why weren’t you *ready* for the ‘716 billion dollar’ lie?”
And the only answer I have is, he must have been. And his expression – it was just like someone told “he’s going to say stuff that you know you can counter. Don’t. You don’t have time, and you can’t win on sound bites.”
I don’t like the game he played, but I think he was playing his game. It’s the only thing I can think of that matches the data.
I remember how during 2000 post-election analysis, they pointed out that Gore stretched a few numbers here and there, but when Bush promised that he was giving only *one* dollar in tax cuts for every *three* dollars in surplus, everyone knew he was flat out dreaming… but Gore stretched a few numbers a little bit, depended on a few rosy projections, and geez… *earth tones*.
I think Obama is counting on being able to hit back better. I hope he’s right. If Romney wins based upon being able to peddle ridiculous lies, I’m going to feel really bad about my country.
@A Canadian Reader – yeah ,the $700 million is a flat out lie, often repeated by wingnuts. Bill Clinton explained it well, in his speech at the DNC. Memorable tagline too, “It Takes Some Brass To Attack A Guy For Doing What You Did”. All Obama had to do was reprise the Big Dog, in just this one instance, to say anything to confront the lies.
Thank you, Swami. I was terribly disappointed until I remembered the 1974 Ali vs Foreman rope-a-dope bout, and watched it again on youtube. I’ve read that Obama keeps a photo of Ali as victor for inspiration.
I hope I’ve learned by now to stop watching this stuff. I’m not that bright, but eventually it comes to me.
John Sununu is a cancerous tumor that just keeps coming back.
As someone (Charlie Pierce I think) recently noted, the thing about the rope-a-dope strategy is that, at some point, you’ve got to start throwing some hard punches. The strategy also depends on the other fighter getting tired. Romney will not get tired of lying.
Thanks, Stella.
He’s my horse if he never wins a race. I trust Obama, I trust his leadership and I trust his judgment. Yes, sometimes it is difficult to watch..like when Paulie Ryan and Eric Cantor were getting off on themselves, and on how cool it was to make Obama look inept…It didn’t matter to them if our country crashed deeper into a depression, and millions of people would suffer needlessly..It only mattered that they thought they looked good. Young guns who are still wet behind the ears.
I’ll repeat this Chinese proverb because it rings of a truth that is pertinent to our country’s situation. It resonates with my patriotism much better than being told that I’m second to none.
In times of drought, you know the good fountains, and in times of adversity, you know the good friends.
at some point, you’ve got to start throwing some hard punches.
Like getting tough on Big Bird? and Elmo too!
OT:
Sherrod Brown/Elizabeth Warren in 2016 – or, vice versa.
I thought Romney’s eyes looked bloodshot and he was sweating like a pig. Granted it’s probably hot up there, but Obama wasn’t sweating. On the other hand, Romney had rehearsed his lies well. Obama’s rebuttals were sometimes clumsy even thought the facts and numbers were there. HALF the debate was on the economy, which sucks and it’s Romney’s entire platform. “The economy sucks so vote for me.”
Something I have not read occurred to me before the debates. The media was saying the election was getting away from Romney. On the verge of imploding. Five – six weeks out. News is a business based on advertising and ratings. If the networks call the election a month out, there is a lot of money that the news media will lose. It’s a business – so they have to make it a close race, which means the networks have incentive to manipulate perceptions.
I’m with BiggerBox on the NPR zinger. James Lipton marveled at the chutzpah inherent in trotting out on stage to both fire the moderator and big bird. Speaking today Obama had more of an edge and challenged more directly. Now let’s see whether he does it when big ol’ scary Mitt is on stage with him. The entire thing reminded me of the difference between Cap’n Crunch and Oatmeal. One’s good for you and the other bad but the latter sure is tasty.
The attrition of positive perception regarding Obamas spine is worse than any overt gaffe. If America were comprised solely of college professors, scientists and technical folks it might be different. Someone can be right and still lose.
Much is remediable and this was only round one. Let’s hope for more. There’s next week. Biden won’t play it safe.
@Swami —
‘When you find yourself begging for access to health care, you can console yourself with knowledge that we’re “second to none”‘
Here is the number one tooth-gnasher of the night. I know it’s dangerous to the truth in this particular matter, but it would be so good to hear something like
“Actually, we are second to someone. In life expectancy, we are second to Portugal in the race to be FORTY-NINTH best. I am not satisfied for *America* [waves virtual flags — I am not much pleased by the hyper-patriotic crap that Obama needs to spout constantly] to be 50th in the world.’
And one could go on, and I certainly would:
“I got this from a report by the Central Intelligence Agency, whose number-1 job is to gather information from everywhere for the Executive to use. But you can see this report too! W W W dot C I A dot G O V. Look in the World Factbook. That’s http://www.cia.gov, folks, and that’s the information we have to work from.”
BTW, https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html
I won’t say that Obama, any time he was half awake, couldn’t do it far better than this, But I have just done it infinitely better than he did.
I, too, should have the sense not to watch this shit.
Romney’s not fit to use the term, Second to None.. I’m offended as an” American fighting man responsible for my actions” that Romney would try to steal from the honor of those of us that he didn’t have the courage to serve with. Congress should have been more explicit when they wrote the Stolen Valor Act, and stop this little butt pirate from even using innuendo to imply he’s near an equal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2nd_Infantry_Division_(United_States)
http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/altitude-sickness-topic-overview
This could be the explaination.
erinyes,
I think it was more the shock of Mitt coming out and completely changing his platform, flip-flopping on 2-6 years of policy stances, and blatantly out-and-out lying while doing it.
There’s evidence of his $5 Trillion increase to the deficit EVERYWHERE!
The President couldn’t believe it when Mitt came out FOR regulating Wall Street. LIE!!!
He couldn’t believe when Mitt took every positive about any program, and said he would keep it. LIE!!!
It’s tough to stand there in front of an aggressive, lying @$$hole, and know how to respond without looking like a jerk.
And that’s what I think Mitt was angling for – for “No Drama Obama” to get pissed-off, and raise his temperature and volume, thus giving Mitt and the knuckledragging cavemen on his side the opening to call the President an angry black man.
I’m starting to see the wisdom in just standing there, and letting Mitt fliip-flop and lie, knowing that the memes that he flip-flops, and that he and Ryan both all of the time, were already well established.
Obama let Mitt play to those memes.
Of course, seemingly rational authoritarian followers like Cup O’ Schmoe think Mitt won – and won big! And the Conservative blogosphere loved that Mitt got in Obama’s face.
But what I heard a lot of yesterday as the day wore on, was that Mitt flip-flopped and lied, and that he wanted to fire Big Bird – AND that he wanted to fire the moderator right in front of him, Jim Lehrer.
So, Obama let Mitt live up to the meme’s already established about him – that the flip-flopper lies, and he likes to fire people.
And, a couple of interesting things came from some poll results that came in right after the debate:
Mitt solidified his standing with Republicans.
Obama solidified his standing with Independents.
The news there isn’t that Mitt appeased his base, and strengthened it – who were they going to vote for besides him?
The new is that Obama looked better to the Independents, who could swing either way.
So, maybe the President and his calm demeanor in the presence of an aggressive lying @$$hole might not have been the loser panicky Liberals like me thought him to be.
I guess only time will tell.
Mitt Romney – hoist by his own retards.
Many years ago when construction was slow , I scanned the jobs section of the classifieds. Low and behold, there was a “position” open at a local Nissan auto dealer for a “sales Associate”.I applied in person that same day. Man, was that a bad move on my part.
First, I had to pay a $500.00 fee for a “training course”. Next, we ( there were about 10 other suckers) had to work in tandem with a “seasoned” sales man for a week. We would only make a commission upon “closing the deal”. Over the next several days, I took deposits from three customers who just walked away from the deals and lost their deposits. In that job, I learned that the salesmans job is to close the deal, no matter what. People expect you to lie to them, and most automobile sales are based on emotion, NOT substance.The whole thing is a jousting match, and if I was loosing, the sales manager would walk into the office and ask the customer to leave.
This is the way Mitt played the game the other night. Mitt put the “sizzle” in the small grey steak while Obama seemed disinterested in the deal at hand.
BTW, I did and still do some sales work, but I’m the sales guy that gives the client all and more than he paid for; always a win/win proposition.
Also too – I’m going to be interested in the demographics in the polls about this debate.
I wonder how Mitt did among women?
Men like me, a lot of the time, see the aggressor as the victor.
Women tend to see aggressive behaviour differently.
I wonder how many woman looked at Mitt in the debate, and saw the older, aggressive, slightly drunk (possibly coked-up), guy who keeps hitting on them at the bar, and lying about what he’ll do for them, just to get them to bed?
Not too many women like guys like that.
Hardly any at all, as a matter of fact.
As I said – time will tell.
http://guide.denverpost.com/lists/8-tips-avoid-mile-high-altitude-sickness/
Gulag, I’m going to stick with the altitude sickness possibility. It makes more sense than any other explaination.
It’s also possibly the case he was just plain tired. I remember him being flat before when he needed not to be, so this is not necessarily a new phenomenon. It’s got to take a huge amount of stamina to do his job. I think if I had the job for a week they’d have to put me in a rest home for six months to recover.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/04/al-gore-blames-altitude-barack-obama-presidential-debate-2012-who-won_n_1940297.html
I just found this.
The economy added 114,000 jobs!
Unemployment at 7.8%!!!
Jeez, too bad!
And here it is, only two days after Mitt kept bringing up how President Obama promised to get the unemployment rate down below 8%.
I wonder if Mittens and Paulie will offer the President their congratulations?
LOL!
If this were W., they’d have rented out the floor of the NY Stock Exchange, had W. ride in in a Rolls, wearing a codpiece under his Brooks Brother suit, and make a speech under a “Mission Accomplished!†banner.
President Obama will take it in stride.
But I’m pretty sure Biden will rub Ryan’s face in Mitt’s comments!
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/10/economy-adds-tk-jobs-in-september.php?ref=fpa
http://news.yahoo.com/romney-says-completely-wrong-47-percent-comments-050305729–abc-news-politics.html
Now it’s 50%… His retraction won’t work..
Re the dip in the unemployment rate, the usual pirates are trying to “Arrrgh!” their way out of it. My favorite quote: I don’t think BLS cooked numbers. I think a bunch of Dems lied about getting jobs. That would have same effect.
Here’s the link to that nonsense:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/05/jobs-numbers-republicans_n_1942200.html
Looks like the Right’s Good Day was a pretty short one and they know it, if they’re overreacting this badly to the jobs report.
Neutron Jack Welch ALWAYS hated days when employment INCREASED!!!
Mitt and Paulie are high fiving and back slapping one another thinking they scored the big one with Mitt’s debate performance..The Bible says..Pride cometh before the fall. I know Romney is going to be soundly rejected by voters come November, but I’m not so confident that the voters of Wisconsin will see through Paulie’s act..The young gun facade — the “thinker” element of that triumvirate of adolescence — might continue to conceal his intellectual fraud.
People of Wisconsin…Vote that little widow peaked butt weasel out of office..send him packin”
So far, I’ve seen two sensible theories about why Obama was so passive.
1) (and a lot of people forget this)He *can not* be the angry black man, ever, not even a little bit, under any circumstances. It sucks, and we might like to imagine it no longer holds, but it’ll hold as long as you can possibly imagine, plus another generation.
2) About the only thing that would excite the Republican base about Romney is something like “OOOH! He pisses off *Obama*!”
Would you people kindly take some time to acknowledge Ann Coutler. She’s been beating on her cage in a desparate attempt to get her venom sac milked, it’s engorged with racial hated.. Just a little shout out, like..”Yeah, them niggers let O.J. go free”, should suffice. She would be especially appreciative of any degorgatory affirmative action comments you could offer. Thanks.
Neutron Jack Welch ALWAYS hated days when employment INCREASED!!!
And if that little old creep turns up again on the final season of 30 Rock, I swear I am writing Tina Fey a sternly worded letter!
[Ann Coulter]’s been beating on her cage in a desparate attempt to get her venom sac milked
Dammit, Swami, soda pop burns when ejected thru the nose!
Is there any credence that Romney employed the Gish Gallup technique and if so, how does one counter it?
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Gish%20Gallop
LongHairedWeirdo ..
He also can’t appear as a cry baby to address the fact that the repug’s have employed every tactic conceivable to destroy his legitimacy as president and as a man. You lie!, Muslim, Birther,nation default, attacking both sides of the Afghanistan issue, destroying our military, apologizing for American..and countless other little barbs meant to wear him down and destroy is presidency…He’s done an outstanding job given the circumstances placed upon him…In my mind,he meets every standard by which I judge a man.Upright and honest, caring and sincere..
If I slip into my military mindset..I’d gladly follow him into battle, it’s just a primal understanding.. But Romney would get fragged…a primal understanding.
That IS funny, Swami!