Conservative blogger Susan Duclos takes issue with my theory that large parts of the people opposed to raising the debt ceiling have no idea what the debt ceiling is.
Then again that is the same old song the left like to sing whenever the majority or plurality of Americans disagree with them. In their minds the American public isn’t educated enough on (insert issue here), the American public aren’t capable of looking into an issue and making their own determination.
Actually, I think (and have said many times) that most Americans can make sensible decisions about issues when the facts are clearly presented to them. However, that hardly ever happens any more. I blame news media for that.
I completely disagree with that. I believe the American public is watching the issue closely, they understand the ceiling is going to be raised but want to make sure the endless merry-go-round of borrowing, spending and being forced to borrow more because Washington overspends, ends.
Dishonest argument. Knowing “the ceiling is going to be raised” but wanting it tied to spending cuts, is not the same thing as being opposed to raising the debt ceiling.
The people responding to the Gallup poll were not asked if they preferred certain conditions to be met before the debt ceiling is raised. They were asked if it should be raised, period. It’s not at all clear from other news stories I have seen that the hard-core teabaggers will be placated by spending cuts if the debt ceiling is raised.
But Republicans in Congress, most of whom realize the debt ceiling will have to be raised, are using the issue to try to gouge concessions from the Democrats on cutting Social Security and Medicare. And this is partly because they are desperate to inoculate themselves from the political fallout of the Ryan budget. If enough Dems vote to cut Medicare and Social Security, Republicans won’t be clobbered by the Ryan budget in 2012. So they’re pushing the same “raise with conditions” argument that Duclos is making.
Back to the poll — the Gallup poll says that “Republicans oppose raising the debt ceiling by 70% to 8%.” Independents oppose it 46% to 15%, and Democrats favor raising it 33% to 26%. Remainders admit they don’t know enough about the issue to have an opinion, which is a remarkably large percentage of “don’t knows.”
A larger portion of Republicans than Dems or Independents say they are watching the issue closely, but I assume that means they are soaking in whatever propaganda is coming out of Faux News and rightie talk radio, and have no clue about what’s really at stake.
But if Duclos is correct, and and a whopping majority of Republicans understand the debt ceiling issue, then they must understand that not raising the debt ceiling could be an economic catastrophe. Yet they oppose raising it. Apparently, they favor deliberately trashing our economy. Why do they hate America?
“. . .they must understand that not raising the debt ceiling could be an economic catastrophe. Yet they oppose raising it. Apparently, they favor deliberately trashing our economy. Why do they hate America?”
Because the president always gets the blame for the economy and that will help them win the 2012 election. It’s not about governing. It’s about winning the next election, and that’s all it’s about. They’re that stupid.
Well, Ms. Duclos, maybe the flaw in Liberals is that we’d like to think that an educated and informed population wouldn’t consiously decide to literally ruin the economy of this, their own nation, and many other nations in the world, creating at best “UNCERTAINTY” in the global economy, and at worst a catastrophe that might make the ongoing world depression(s) between the World Wars seem like “Happy Days Are Here Again!”.
With all due respect (and I don’t think that’s much), Ms. Duclos, I wonder how much YOU understand the issue?
Also, too, where were all of you people during the 7 years that the debt ceiling had to be raised during Little Boots’ 8 years of misrule? And that the only reason that it wasn’t 8 out of 8 years, IS THAT THE FIRST YEAR HE WAS HANDED A SURPLUS!!! Are you also aware that most of the debt that’s been run up in the last 40 years has been under REPUBLICAN Presidents, and worked down under Democratic ones? I doubt it. But it might be a nice thing to know before spouting off on debt, no?
I think I see one of the problems:
On our Liberal planet, we live off of Oxygen.
On your Conservative planet, you absorb Foxygen.
Because they want it back the way it was when little boots was president, and they controlled the house, and senate. Little boots never vetoed any bill they wanted him to sign into law, and they gave him anything he wanted, and they had the power to do anything that inriched their lives. Its all about power. Do you think anyone of them give a shit about this country?
That’s actually an interesting question. I think they are very attached to an image or idea of America that bears no resemblance to what America is or ever was, and which would be a nightmarish place if it ever came to pass. But no, I don’t think they like the real thing at all.
“I think they are very attached to an image or idea of America that bears no resemblance to what America is or ever was, and which would be a nightmarish place if it ever came to pass. But no, I don’t think they like the real thing at all.”
You can see that in their word choices: They love “America.” “The United States,” they never seem too crazy about.
As for Ms. Duclos, I wonder what she has to say about the fact that EVERYONE hates Paul Ryan’s plan to destroy Medicare (yes it does). Paul Ryan says it’s because they don’t understand it. I wonder whether she’s excoriated that kind of lazy, America-hating excuse-making.
I think John Boehner anwered the question about loving this country when he said he longed for the America he grew up in in the 1950’s.
America had just won WWII (but had a horrible and costly tie in Korea).
The economy was booming (but with high taxes to insure fairness).
Blacks and women didn’t have their full civil rights, so white men ruled (but the poo-poo was about to hit the ventilator).
June Cleever wore a dress and pearls and welcomed home Ward in his suit, and had dinner ready for them and their two BOYS (of course, that was fiction, Mr. Speaker – a sitcom).
So, they have this image of a good, virginally pure, exceptional America from TV, where all of the zits, blemishes, boils, and other imperfections are air-brushed out in their memories. And never mind the God-awful things we were doing around the world to grow or maintain power, and to help our corporations.
Today’s America, they don”t love so much.
The America that they would give a shit about never existed, but they’d be happy if it could return to those days when it was at least:
White.
Male.
Powerful.
Exceptional.
Where people knew their places.
And they’re doing everything the can to make it that way.
… when the white middle class was doing pretty well, thanks to the New Deal.
Seriously, today’s Republicans make Dwight Eisenhower look like a flaming socialist.
I agree with Gary. And, I distrust the results of ANY Gallup poll.
Maybe it’s a desire to return what an America never was, but I think it’s more a case of fear, fear of change, and/or cognitive dissonance, holding two conflicting views at the same time and reducing dissonance by justifying one view while blaming and denying its opposite.
The ‘fear’ thing has no real depth to it. Remember when the right went bananas over long hair on men – long hair for god’s sake. If a man had long hair, he was automatically a hippie – sort of the mark of Cain thing. Some would say it was what the hair stood for that engendered fear, but I disagree, it really was the hair that engendered the fear because a non-hippie could have long hair but with the hair he was automatically a hippie to a rightie.
Why does a debt ceiling have to be approved? If Congress approves spending of $3.7 and lowers taxes to $2.2 billion it knows there will be a deficit. The debt ceiling should be implicit in other actions and automatic.
Obama knew this was coming when he passed the tax cut extension. Everybody knew it was coming. Why wasn’t it part of the deal? Maybe he wants the cuts?
POP QUIZ…Current events.
Q. What do Osama Bin Laden and Clarence Thomas have in common?
Hint: They are both aficionados of this art form….. 🙂
There’s an inherent problem considering ‘righties’ as a monolithic group. CUND Gulag hinted at this yesterday when he observed that Wall Street guys don’t like the game of chicken that the House is playing because the Street could see consequences even if the House concedes at the last moment.
But there are more factions than just Wall Street cats and House Teabaggers. John Bohner is an old school conservative politician trying to navigate a new political environment. It’s not just the tea party that’s new. The puppet masters are more interested in defeating the democrats (and democracy) than building a strong GOP. A fragmented, ineffective GOP is not what ambitious GOP politicians want, but the ends of the puppet masters are best served by a dysfunctional government. This is new strategy – the old plan involved promoting conservative candidates and building a political machine sympathetic to right-wing views. Not now. As I see it, the new puppet masters have streamlined the goal. Cripple government. Period. The function of the GOP is to defeat democrats. Building consensus within the GOP and political empire building is unimportant to the puppet masters.
I am not sure that the puppet masters want to avoid defaulting on the national debt. I’m not talking about millionaires. I’m talking about millionaires who have no loyalty to any country or currency. If the US does NOT dfault
Of course. I was just being snarky.
Some of them at the top may very well not care, or even wish to see the U.S. fall into economic chaos so they can pick over the bones. Then again, a lot of the puppet masters at the top inherited their wealth, and I wonder how bright some of them are.
I think the Wall Street crew on the whole really doesn’t want to see the U.S. fail, because it would cost them a lot of money, too, and as long as they are still more or less physically connected to Wall Street. That could change, of course.
When you filter down to the next level — politicians and media personalities — I think there are some who know what’s going on and follow orders, and some who really don’t know but are True Believers. And then when you get down to the layer of bloggers and activists, they probably all believe what they’re told.
There’s an inherent problem considering ‘righties’ as a monolithic group. CUND Gulag hinted at this yesterday when he observed that Wall Street guys don’t like the game of chicken that the House is playing because the Street could see consequences even if the House concedes at the last moment.
But there are more factions than just Wall Street cats and House Teabaggers. John Bohner is an old school conservative politician trying to navigate a new political environment. It’s not just the tea party that’s new. The puppet masters are more interested in defeating the democrats (and democracy) than building a strong GOP. A fragmented, ineffective GOP is not what ambitious GOP politicians want, but the ends of the puppet masters are best served by a dysfunctional government. This is new strategy – the old plan involved promoting conservative candidates and building a political machine sympathetic to right-wing views. Not now. As I see it, the new puppet masters have streamlined the goal. Cripple government. Period. The function of the GOP is to defeat democrats. Building consensus within the GOP and political empire building is unimportant to the puppet masters.
I am not sure that the puppet masters want to avoid defaulting on the national debt. I’m not talking about millionaires. I’m talking about millionaires who have no loyalty to any country or currency. If the US does NOT dfault
If the US does NOT default on the national debt, then taxes on the VERY rich will go up – a lot. If Congress got serious, closed tax loopholes and made it mandatory to pay your share if you want to participate in the US market, they would loose big – compared to where they are. If the US got serious about the national debt – after balancing the budget, it would be catastrophic for billionaires. If the US developed an energy policy that wasn’t based on fossil fuels, economic empires would fall.
I don’t know the answer, but heres the question. Do the puppet masters expect that economic Armagedon for the USA isn’t the opportunity of the century – for them?
So much of the “conservative” movement depends precisely upon people not being educated or properly informed, witness Fox News. In addition, the righties have made public idols out of complete idiots like Sarah Palin or Little Boots. It appears that it is a public virtue any more to be a complete ignoramus.
Excuse me for my tablet. It locked – sent twice and I was in the middle. My comments want for clarity in the best of times.
I was not being critical about the term ‘righties’. I was only expanding on my opinion that within ‘righties’ there are factions with nearly opposing objectives. This isnt new to you, Barbara. I agree the Wall Street crowd (mostly) is terrified of a meltdown but there are global players who outgrow the Street billions of dollars ago. They have no real national loyalty or identity and they will convert their wealth to gold or euros or petro.
I honestly don’t know if they perceive a national meltdown and default on the debt to their benefit. But it’s strictly my opinion that wealth reaches a point where it’s no longer a measure of what you can purchase but megabytes become a measure of ego. Perceived personal power. Two years ago, President Obama called the CEOS of the big banks together and told them what they would do (to prevent a banking collapse). A year ago Obama called BP on the carpet. The American president is acting like he thinks he’s important, to the point he’s willing to intimidate powerful people. IMO, at that level (where I have never been) money, ego, and power are one united entity. That entity feels particular challenged by the deficit, the national debt, this president, and the predictable outcome which could undermine their supremacy.
Doug — I agree with what you say. In fact, I wonder if global corporations will grow so powerful that the concepts of “nation” and “national government” will become meaningless. I don’t expect that to happen in my lifetime, but certainly within this century, if it isn’t checked.
Several of my friends are conservatives, and there are times when all I can do is shake my head in disbelief at what they say.
Last week , one was telling me that torture to get information is O.K., “sometimes you gotta break a few eggs to make an omlet”, then he said the threat from radical Islam is greater than anything “we” have ever faced.
I guess he forgot about MAD during the cold war, and totally forgot about the tens of millions killed and entire cities crushed in WW2.
Another does not understand why wall street is doing well while main street has hit the skids. He does not understand the global chess board.He HATES teachers, the U.S. postal service, unions in general, the SEIU in particular, liberals, progressives,the “Hollywood elite”, and thinks Glenn Beck has all the right answers.
The right clearly have a different world view.
I base my world view on my past direct involvement, from my travels to different lands, friends who were from Iraq and Iran, my childhood poverty, my struggle to get an education, my interaction with unions (both as employee / member, and as business owner).
I base my beliefs on real world experiences, NOT faith or belief in authority figures.I also don’t fear the unknown, I actually embrace chaos (to a degree).
Check out “Fellowship of the minds”, then go to “pathology of the left” to see how they view us. They still live in a world where communism is the threat, and magic and force rule; Mayberry with Barnie Fife in charge…………
I agree that the amount of “Don’t know” responses is interesting, but I think it’s more informative to look at the proportions across the groups. 41% of Democrats and 39% of Independents are willing to admit their ignorance, but for Republicans the number is only 28%.
Duclos’ complaints notwithstanding, then, there are two options. Either Republicans are actually smarter than everyone else, or they’re more willing to take a stand without actually knowing what’s going on.
In wonder which theory Duclos subscribes to? If it’s the latter, then she’s pretty much conceding the argument. If it’s the former, then she really needs to shut the hell up about affecting intellectual superiority.
Great. Argumentum ad populum raised to an art form.
Of course, when a majority of people think that the Ryan plan for ending Medicare (yes, yes, yes… “and replacing it with a new program with the same name, but that doesn’t contain the essence of what Medicare is today, which will be much, much more costly, and result in many people dying because they can’t afford medical care – or, would result in *higher* costs than the current Medicare, as Congress votes additional vouchers in place for fear of upsetting the most reliable voting block, retirees….”), righties like to pretend that people don’t understand either.
Especially in the South the habit of talking in code because their society was politically incorrect gave Gingrich and FOX the “culture war” issues to get that extra 1%. Faith-based voters are seeing the results of 2010 in the take-over of their states in the middle of the night in some cases to pollute, control through emergency procedures, and take money away from social programs to give to corporations. “Conservatives” have faced a cowed Democratic party who kept being moved to the right with thug tactics against their members who were then left defenseless. Corporate media typically show a 3-1 ratio of GOP versus left as Rachel Maddow keeps track. Corporate funding follows the 3-1 pattern. Obama believes, as do I, that democracy requires education and good faith in negotiations. The right thinks democracy is a sucker’s game. So far the thugs are winning. Bush was an example of massive destruction of the US and they simply deny the facts and keep on destroying.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKmXRwjWYUM
My, how times have changed…………….
You’re talking about a group (most right-wingers) who will TELL you they think most people are stupid, if they think it won’t matter. Look at their opinions on democracy in general.
It’s only when it might score them political points that they try the “lefties don’t trust you/think you’re stupid” line. It’s disingenuous at best.
They love “America.†“The United States,†they never seem too crazy about.
That has the word United in it. They are opposed to anything United beyond the republicon party. That makes it easier to spark distrust and hate.
You know, I was thinking about this. The righties like to talk about American Exceptionalism. But the way they talk about it….
See, there *are* things about America that are exceptional. This country *was* founded on the idea that the people granted power of governance, that every single person – not just the nobility – mattered.
But insofar as there’s any exceptionalism, it’s for the ideals.
They don’t hold to the ideals. They don’t think all people are equal before the law, and valuable.
They don’t actually love America – they love themselves… and love being Americans, because it gives them goodies they wouldn’t otherwise have.