At National Review, Andrew McCarthy proposes a “thought experiment.”
A friend poses the following: Imagine that there really were these fundamentalist Christian terror cells all over the United States, as the Department of Homeland Security imagines. Let’s say a group of five of these terrorists hijacked a plane, flew it to Mecca, and plowed it into the Kaaba.
Now let’s say a group of well-meaning, well-funded Christians — Christians whose full-time job was missionary work — decided that the best way to promote healing would be to pressure the Saudi government to drop its prohibition against permitting non-Muslims into Mecca so that these well-meaning, well-funded Christian missionaries could build a $100 million dollar church and community center a stone’s throw from where the Kaaba used to be — you know, as a bridge-building gesture of interfaith understanding.
What do you suppose President Obama, Mayor Bloomberg, the New York Times, and other Ground Zero mosque proponents would say about the insensitive, provocative nature of the proposal?
I can’t speak for anybody but me, but I’d say this is a matter between the Christian missionaries and the Saudis. And it wouldn’t surprise me a whole lot of President Obama and Mayor Bloomberg said the same thing. The State Department might tell the Christian missionaries to not expect to be rescued if they’re taken hostage by jihadists, but that’s about it.
What disturbs me about this analogy, however, is the unspoken assumption that Americans shouldn’t be expected to value religious liberty and tolerance toward Muslims if Saudis don’t value religious liberty and tolerance toward Christians (the Western default religion). Since when do we look to Saudi Arabia as the arbiter of what is virtuous?
What the righties don’t get is that the Cordoba House/Park 51 controversy is not about Islam, but about America. What are our values? What are our principles? What does America stand for? And do we maintain those values and principles through thick and thin, or do we chuck them under the bus whenever something frightens us?
I realize there is much less religious tolerance in most Middle Eastern countries than there is supposed to be in the United States, which is one of the many reasons I’m glad I was born in the United States and not the Middle East. But either we value religious liberty and tolerance, or we don’t. And lately the Right has been saying, we don’t. What we value is paranoia and vindictiveness. If Muslims in the Middle East don’t tolerate us, then we won’t tolerate them. Nyah nyah nyah.
I have this crazy idea that our first responsibility, as citizens, is to respect and maintain the principles outlined in the Constitution and other founding documents, like the Declaration of Independence. We should do this so that our descendants can enjoy the liberties and privileges that our ancestors fought to provide us. And sometimes that might take some courage, keeping one’s head, steering a steady course through the storm, etc.
But today’s conservatives don’t see it that way. For them, “liberty” is just a word they put on their T-shirts. It has no applicable meaning. As soon as the ship of state hits some rough waters, they panic and toss the Bill of Rights overboard.
And all the while babbling about how they hate us for our freedoms. Talk about oblivious.
Going back to the “thought experiment,” in that scenario I doubt that the Christian church/community center could be built in Mecca, because I don’t think the Saudi government would allow it. But New York is not in Saudi Arabia. It’s in the United States. And we’re supposed to be better than that. But I guess Andy McCarthy doesn’t think so.
I have an idea for a thought experiment: let’s try to imagine Andy McCarthy thinking. Or is that more like a science fiction plot?
Be sure to read “Balancing Act for Imam in Muslim Center Furor.” The more I read about Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, the more sorry I am about the hate campaign being waged against him by the rightie hyenas.
I have trouble equating the Twin Towers – Mecca of capitalism- with the Kaaba – Mecca of, well, Mecca.
You’re absolutely right on the foolishness of expecting Americans to live down to Saudi standards on equality, but I couldn’t even get that far. My mind beached hopelessly on the equating of a holy shrine that has been central to the beliefs and cultural traditions of millions from diverse nations over centuries with a fancy office building complex that didn’t even open until after the Mets won the World Series.
Um, what?
Do Andrew McCarthy’s people have a religious duty to make a pilgrimage to pray to the God (Money?) on Wall St.? I didn’t realize that…though it makes a lot of things start to make sense. (Who knew that bull statue outside the Merrill-Lynch building was really a religious icon?) Does McCarthy kneel down five times a day and pray to lower Manhattan?
In other words, on what planet is the World Trade Center in any way equivalent to the Kaaba?
And once you get past that, you get to the Christian missionaries bit. The people behind the Park51 project aren’t foreigners, so again we have a false (and cunningly suggestive) equivalence. McCarthy would like to obscure the fact that there are Muslims happily living and working (and dying, on 9/11) in New York, and they go to mosques near the WTC site already. They aren’t interlopers – it’s their neighborhood!
There are SO MANY things confused and wrong with the underlying assumptions of this ‘thought experiment’ that it’s about as useful as speculating about what Obama, Bloomberg and the rest of us non-bigoted loonies would think of a hypothetical proposal to build a gas station near SpongeBob’s pineapple, following BP’s assault on the Gulf.
I don’t know who is stupider: McCarthy’s “friend” for coming up with this scenario, or McCarthy for using it in a column.
Imagine you’re an idiot who wants to create a lame imaginary scenario that doesn’t make sense, but don’t have the courage to admit to being the creator of such a lame piece of work so you create an imaginary friend to shield you from your stupidity.
Imagine a Pope as an anti-aircraft gunner for Hitler’s Third Reich.
Imagine living in a country where they torture people.. but claim that they do not torture because the same type of torture they condemn all other countries for doesn’t apply to them because it is not torture when they do it.
So much for the thought experiment…You know what happened to thought? He shit in his pants because he thought they were down.
Imagine 10,000 stock brokers, bond traders and hedge fund managers circumambulating around ground zero.
Our government values religious liberty and tolerance. Private citizens and institutions are under no such requirement. They can be as big an asshole as they want. It’s the left’s job (in this particular example) to convince them of the benefits of the mosque but no one’s trying. And yes, many of their minds can be changed with a little information. It’s quite easy for some of them. It’s just that no one’s asked them to turn on their brains yet.
It is the government’s job to protect the rights of citizens from bigoted mobs, however. So however much the mob may wish to prevent black children from attending an all-white public high school in Little Rock, for example, it’s the government’s job to protect the children from the mob and see to it they can attend school. The mob can voice whatever opinion it likes, but it must not be allowed to deprive other citizens of their rights.
Excuse me? I think many of us are trying the best we can, but you can’t reason with a mob.
Oh, sorry, I didn’t realize you were a visitor from another planet. On this planet, the mob will never change its mind. They will simply manufacture a pack of lies that allows them to believe whatever they like. The best thing one can do is to try to reach people who are misinformed but not yet in the mob. However, given the realities of U.S. mass media, that’s just about impossible.
I gave up on that sometime during the Clinton Administration. Impossible.
How about imagining Ann Coulter hooking up with Joey Buttafuoco. Now that’s not too far of a stretch( like minded conservatives)..seems like a match made in heaven to me.
On the contrary, JR, I believe the problem is too many people, including Andrew McCarthy, are telling them to turn OFF their brains, not that they haven’t been asked to turn them on.
Not that I agree that “brain off” would be an acceptable default for citizens in a democracy.
Nor do I agree that it’s the left’s job to convince anyone of the benefits of being able to exercise their rights in accordance with the law, a position which should be self-evident. I think the burden of proof remains with those who demand we deprive the Park51 proponents of their rights and force the citizens of New York to conform to the bigotry of a woman from Alaska and a has-been pol from Georgia.
(Though I do find a charming naivete in the suggestion that the right-wing noisemakers are arguing legitimately and are amenable to any argument that could be made. As if they really cared about finding the best, highest use of properties in the neighborhood. Ha!)
Dear Saudi Arabia,
We American Conservatives so admire you as a country, that we have decided we are going to change our entire system to the one that you have.
We are well on our way to having a Royal Family with the Bush’s. If we can rig the voting machines (again – snicker, guffaw!), or eliminate them, we can put Jeb in as President, then King.
We’re doing our best to limit womens rights. But this may take awhile. Damn bitches got a taste of freedom in the last century. On the plus side, the Lord blessed us with a lot of stones.
We have an underclass which we can exploit. We used to use immigrants, but now people from the former middle class will take anything out there. A bunch of them bought the ‘trickle down’ BS that we’ve been feeding them for decades. Simps!!!
As for a religious shrine, we’re well on our way with the WTC site as “Hallowed Ground.”
We’re working on creating a religious state, like yours. But ours will have our superior Jesus Christ to that guy you can’t even draw that you’ve got.
So, outside of the inferior religion of Islam, we Christianists would like to thank you for the wonderful example that you’ve given us.
Repectfully Yours,
Wannabe Saudi Americans
PS: Sorry about the superior Christ line. Hopefully, you’ll keep our oil prices low out of respect for like-minded religious zealots.
I agree criticisms of the analogy and the bad fit of the elements.
It might be useful to imagine a mindset to which the analogy IS valid and try to determine a set of assumptions and equivalences that would bring this mindset about. The phrase “freemarket fundamentalist” has been kicking around for a long time. One reason for its popularity is that it is an apt description of the of the reverence some have for late stage capitalism. The Kaaba and WTC would seem eqivalent to those for whom capitalism has become a kind of state religion. A number of my neighbors are fundamentalist ministers and I have known them for over ten years. Freemarket economics frequently and seamlessly drifts into religious discussions and it is improbable to exchange more than a few sentences without some biblical reference. My impression is that none have read so much as a serious article regarding economics as a discipline apart from what some fundamentalist ministers have written about it.
Some churches have maintained their social position in part by succumbing to the temptation of earthly power. They have ceased to exercise moral restraint upon the rich and powerful and have become their cheerleaders and propagandists. This is the mindset that produces a book entitled “Jesus Christ CEO”. Religion of this sort is a useful tool to inculcate freemarket ideology by implanting it in conjunction with spiritual lessons. To those of us who grew up with the Social Gospel, freemarket ideology seems antithetical to spiritual growth. But, to some they are inseparable.
Libertarians seem to illustrate a similar secular phenomenon. They have shifted the definition of some of our central concepts such as “freedom” and “liberty” to apply to capital rather than individuals, otherwise know as “human beings”. They have made capital an entitiy in itself deserving of civil liberties. This may be a bit simplistic, but has some validity.
Now, a simple, obvious and somewhat puerile thought experiment:
Your name is Joey Buttafuoco and you have just entered Junior High School. I think you can see where this is going.
Gertrude Stein said of Oakland, “There’s no there, there.” I’m beginning to think it could be said of the mind of a Rightie, “There’s no there, there.”
You libs are too funny. The comparison between Mecca and New York City isn’t an unfair comparison. NYC is the cultural center of not only the US but to an extent the West.
And comparing our opposition to the intolerance of Saudi Arabia is another red herring. Those of us in opposition to “Park 51” aren’t denying their legal right to build a mosque. Admittedly they can. It’s the reasoning behind it. The proponents argue that it is intended to bridge the divide between Muslims and the West. If they were in fact sensitive to bridging anything, they would consider our feelings on the matter. But they don’t. Plus the plan to dedicate it on 9/11/11, is also a slap in the face.
Saudi Arabia forbids any places of worship other than Islam–anywhere in Saudi Arabia. We’re not saying the same..so that comparison is also misguided.
The name Cordoba-has negative connotations as well. It refers to the conquest of Muslims in Spain.
And forget about the “Imam” that supports Hamas. The one leading the charge? Yeah, he mentions we are in part to blame for 9/11.
I think it would be a marvelous idea to build this “community center” in order to bridge any gap that exists…just not in the shadow of one of the greatest crimes in human history.
But then again I’ve never seen a fair or compelling argument from a lib. Especially one without ad hominem attacks.
First, what do you mean by “our” feelings? Who is “we”? I was personally in lower Manhattan on September 11, 2001, and am an eyewitness to the collapse of the towers, and I’m fine with the Park Place location. A majority of the people of Manhattan are in favor of building the center on Park Place. One of the September 11 family associations — one that actually has members who lost loved ones on 9/11, as opposed to Debra Burlingame’s phony “group” — has endorsed it. In fact, opposition to the center grows bigger the further one goes from Manhattan. So the people who would actually live with the center in their neighborhood and see it every day — most of whom are were also eyewitnesses to 9/11 — are more often than not in favor of it. It’s y’all out-of-towners who are stirring up opposition.
So, please be clear — when you say “our” feelings, what you mean are “your” feelings, plus the feelings of a mob of hysterical bigots who have been fed a pack of lies about what’s being planned on Park Place. And I don’t give a rat’s ass about “your” feelings.
There’s no way it’s going to be finished by then, even if the controversy dies down tomorrow. They don’t even have architectural drawings yet, and they still have to raise most of the funds. Given all the hoops they still have to jump through, it’s going to take at least two to three more years before it’s ready to be dedicated, probably more. So that can’t be a serious “plan”; more likely a rumor.
If a mob of crazies stops the Center from being built, then it is the same. Either you respect freedom of religion, or you don’t.
Really, this whole issue is so phony. There’s an Islamic prayer room in the Pentagon, for pity’s sake. There are Muslims prayer rooms all over Manhattan, including lower Manhattan. The Park Place property is already being used as a Muslim prayer room. So they want to fix it up and build a nicer prayer room, plus a YMCA-type facility open to the public. The only reason this is controversial is pure bigotry.
More ignorance. Cordoba is remembered as a place where Islamic civilization flowered for a time. During the time it was part of a Muslim caliphate it was one of the largest and most advanced cities in the world and a center for the arts and sciences of the day. And, anyway, the name has been changed to Park51; it’s not Cordoba House any more.
The imam is the victim of one of the most vicious and dishonest character assassination campaigns I’ve ever seen, and my memory goes back to the Eisenhower Administration, so I’ve seen some doozies. His words about Hamas were taken out of context. This man is in no way associated with terrorists. He’s a bleeping SUFI, for pity’s sake. Al Qaeda considers Sufis to be infidel. The Taliban has been targeting Sufi mosques and shrines in the Middle East for terrorist attacks. For that matter, I don’t believe Hamas will have anything to do with Sufis.
Before you continue to blacken your sinful soul by bearing false witness against the imam, please educate yourself. Read “Balancing Act for Imam in Muslim Center Furor” and “How Fox Betrayed Petraeus.”
Yes, righties interpret any argument disagreeing with theirs as an “ad hominem attack.” They believe the First Amendment guarantees them the right not to be disagreed with. Sorry; I disagree.
Update: I missed this.
It won’t be in the “shadow” of “ground zero,” nor will it cast a shadow on “ground zero.” It won’t bleeping be visible from “ground zero,” because the buildings in between “ground zero” and the site of Park 51 are MUCH BIGGER than Park 51 is supposed to be. So for all the visual impact it’s going to have on “ground zero,” it might as well be 20 blocks away instead of 2, or somewhere in Wyoming.
And, once again, I love the way all of lower Manhattan suddenly is somehow “holy ground,” even with the bars, strip clubs, betting parlors, and porn video shops.
And don’t bother saying that strippers didn’t attack the trade center. Neither did Sufis. The only reason people object the project is that they think all Muslims are alike, which is nothing but bigotry.
“What the righties don’t get is that the Cordoba House/Park 51 controversy is not about Islam, but about America. What are our values? What are our principles? What does America stand for? And do we maintain those values and principles through thick and thin, or do we chuck them under the bus whenever something frightens us?”
Normally such logic would prevail, unfortunately the righties that are hell bent against the center are because they believe Islam is evil. The constitution goes right out the window whenever religion is involved; they are being guided by the sky-wizard. It was the same perverted logic that got us into Iraq.
What was it that Martin Luther King said?..”America should rise up and live out the true meaning of it’s creed.” I think that would apply to our claims of freedom of religion also.
Basically, the Right thinks freedom of religion applies only to religions they approve of.
“I think it would be a marvelous idea to build this “community center†in order to bridge any gap that exists…just not in the shadow of one of the greatest crimes in human history”
How far away is far enough, where do the shadows cease? The greatest crimes in human history? Funny you would call it a crime, I thought it was an act of war, only them there liburals call it a crime, you better check your phraseology or you’ll get yourself banned from marauding dimwitted teabagger mob!
amishmime – The caliphate in Spain was known for its tolerance of all religions. It was when Spain was later under Christian/Catholic rule that religious intolerance reared its ugly head.
amish+mime?
And yet this person uses a computer and speaks! And speaks out against people of another religion speaking out.
amishmime, please feel free to use the phrase I just used. It describes you far better than ‘amishmime:’ “Saudi American.”
Oh, btw, my new favorite rightie line- “But then again I’ve never seen a fair or compelling argument from a lib. Especially one without ad hominem attacks.”
That ranks up there with my all time favorite – “There’s nothing anyone can do to convince me that… blah, blah, blah…”
If you don’t like “Saudi American,” amishmime, how about “Dim-bulb?”
It was when Spain was later under Christian/Catholic rule that religious intolerance reared its ugly head.
Yeah, some of these righties should read about Philip II of Spain’s birthday party where they used heretics as birthday candles in a grand auto de fe. What better way to celebrate such a happy occasion as by burning human beings while singing feliz compleanos.
asinine?
Here’s a better analogy: suppose the World Trade Center had been attacked by an extremist Christian sect, like the Branch Davidians or that group rounded up by the FBI earlier this year in the midwest. And suppose a “moderate” Christian group decided to build a church on the site of the old Burlington Coat Factory. Would anyone be claiming that such a project was insensitive or inappropriate?
I’d like to propose a *thought experiment* for McCarthy:
How about prohibiting Presbyterians from building community centers near K-12 schools, because some Catholic priests were/are pedophiles and both Catholics and Presbyterians are Christians. (apologies to Jon Stewart)
Makes about as much sense to me.
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Our social contract is the constitution. THAT is what’s under atack by the righties even if most of those tools/fools don’t know it. And they are winning. Who are “they”? The oligarchs. Fools and tools are exemplifies by Coors, Norquist, Forbes and the bush crime family.
I honestly don’t know what to make of this theater of the absurd which the left is performing. I mean, here you have the far-left in this country, where most anti-Americans, anti-Christian bigots and atheists politically reside, claiming the moral high ground when it comes to patriotism and religious freedom.
And if that isn’t absurd enough for you, the far-leftists are claiming patriotism and religious freedom IN SUPPORT OF ISLAM!
Quick, name one predominantly Muslim country where homosexuals aren’t hanged? Where women aren’t beaten? Hell, where woman have rights? Where abortion is legal?
You are hanging yourselves you useful idiots! You’re gonna be the first people they come after, and mark my words, it’ll start in about five years here. Look at what is going on in Europe right now. The civilizations are clashing. Homosexuals are being beaten and women are being harassed and given anonymous threats over “immodestyâ€.
We liberals have always occupied the moral high ground when it comes to patriotism and religious freedom. We invented religious freedom, actually, and all the other civil liberties. You should thank us.
First, I’m not a “far” leftist. I’m a liberal more or less in the tradition of James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, and New Deal, FDR-style liberalism. That used to be the center before your righties took over and mucked everything up. I consider “far” leftists to be Marxists, and I’m way not a Marxist.
Second, Islam is a religion. This is America. Hence, the First Amendment applies. You don’t get to exclude a religion because you don’t like it. If that were the case, the U.S. would have turned into a Christian theocracy a long time ago.
If it were up to conservatives, those things would be going on in the United States. Some of them do go on in the United States, actually, although thanks to liberals, they are illegal.
One, In Europe, Muslims on the whole have been ghettoized and not allowed to assimilate. Europeans don’t have the experience we have at absorbing new ethnic groups. Two, right now, Muslims are .6 percent of the U.S. population, according to the Pew Survey. Less than one percent. Exactly what do you think that .6 percent of the population will be able to do, even in 5 years?
The rights and privileges enshrined in the Constitution not only protect Muslims from you, they also protect you from Muslims if they ever become a more significant population group. All the more reason to uphold those rights and not flush them down the toilet every time someone frightens us.
But the fact is, the group in New York wanting to build an Islamic Center are Sufis, and some Sufis are more liberal than most evangelicals in this country. So I’m really not concerned. But then, I’m not an ignorant bigot. It must be upsetting being you.
So when is Andy (or Newt, or Pammy) going to demand that the Pope allow construction of a synagogue or ashram in Vatican City?
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Aside from the clear object lesson that the troll commenters have thoughtfully provided on ignorance of current facts, history and culture, McCarthy’s original analogy is flawed because he equates the Sufis behind Cordoba House with Christian missionaries. The goal of the latter has always been to convert others to the “correct” religion (theirs). The goal of the former is, once again: interfaith understanding. It appears to escape McCarthy’s understanding that people of one faith actually can respect the faith of others. That probably arises from the culture in which he lives.