A hate-mongering “pastor” from Florida named Terry Jones is making himself famous by promoting his “Burn a Quran Day.” The best part of this story is that Jones is head of something called the Dove World Outreach Center. Some things snark themselves. But a little more snark doesn’t hurt —
News of the pastor’s hate festival has reached Afghanistan and sparked protests. Gen. David Petraeus said that the stunt puts the lives of U.S. troops in danger and damages the “war effort.
Whereupon some rightie bloggers began whining that they have a right to burn Qurans. For example,
For the record, I oppose book burnings on general principle. There are much more effective ways to fight Islamization and creepin’ sharia in the West.
But it brings to mind a question my pal Greg over at Rhymes With Right raised a while ago: If you can burn a flag , why can’t you burn a Qu’ran?
The answer of course is that you can.
It’s revealing that the Left is absolutely bat bonkers about the Qu’ran barbecue but has always been totally supportive of burning the American flag as a matter of Constitutionally mandated free speech if nothing else.
Of course the pastor has a right to burn Qurans. I haven’t heard of anyone, including any part of the justice system, trying to stop him. Further, General Petraeus was not ordering people to not burn Qurans. He was saying, if you do this, you are putting the lives of troops in danger and hurting the war effort. It was a statement of fact.
It’s also a fact that if Jones goes through with the stunt, and American troops die as a result, and the work to de-radicalize Afghanistan is set back, Jones will suffer no consequences. He will remain free to throw more public temper tantrums that hurt his country as often as he likes. Because this is America, and people are free to express themselves.
For the past several days, one argument being made about the Park51 development in lower Manhattan is that “just because you have a right to do something doesn’t make it right.” And of course, that’s true. You have a right to smear yourself with molasses and sit on an anthill, for example, but that doesn’t make it a good idea.
However, in the case of Park51, the arguments against the “rightness” of it are not just subjective; most of them are unadulterated bunk. There is no rational reason to not build an Islamic Center on Park Place. The building was functioning as a mosque, a place for Islamic prayer services, for several months before the controvery kicked off, and it didn’t bother anyone until a few hotheads decided to raise a stink about it.
But in the case of the Quran burning, there could be real consequences. U.S. troops could die. The effort in Afghanistan, into which this nation has poured considerable blood and treasure, could be set back.
We could argue, of course, whether anything tangible could ever be accomplished in Afghanistan through any sort of military action. I am skeptical. I personally think there was a window of opportunity that closed at least five years ago. General Petraeus, however, seems to think he can accomplish something, but the Quran burning will be setting him back.
One would think those people who have supported U.S. military action against Islamic radicals in the Middle East would think, wow, maybe the Quran burning is a really bad idea, and request of Pastor Jones that he cancel his plans. Just because someone has a right to do something doesn’t mean it’s the right thing to do.
And I think if I had a son or daughter in Afghanistan right now, I’d be mightly pissed off at Pastor Jones.
I also think that people who have basked in the romance of living in a “time of war” — while they were safe at home, of course — would be eager to step in and do their bit. In past wars, the government often requested that citizens restrict their speech for the war effort. You know, make some sacrifices. I guess sacrifices aren’t fun.
So when John the Power Tool asks, “Still, is it not highly problematic when a senior military officer warns American citizens against exercising their undoubted First Amendment rights?” the answer is, I think it’s problematic that the Tool thinks this is problematic. Again, no one is stopping Jones from burning Qurans. But if we’re really taking this “time of war” mystique seriously, then civilians have a part to play.
I hate to think how the Tool would react if he were subjected to World War II-style rationing. The “free market” types would riot in the streets, or else at the sight of a ration book they’d melt into puddles like the Wicked Witch of the West.
Whatever happened to “let’s roll?”
Instead of thoughtfully considering what the General requested, wngnut responses range from So what? They’re killing the troops, anyway; what’s a few more? to The general is a good dhimmi willing to trash the constitution for the privilege of kissing muslim butts.
But the Constitution is not trashed here, because the government will not stop Terry Jones. Neither Petraeus nor anyone else is calling for the government to step in and arrest Jones so that he can’t hold his Q’ran burning. They’re just requesting of him to not do it for the good of his country.
So, dear wingnuts, no one is depriving Terry Jones of his right to free expression, which in this case will be showing the world that he’s a hypocritical buffoon. The general is just pointing out that this could get troops killed and set back the war effort. That’s part of his job.
But this is why I titled the post “emotional puberty and wingnuttia.” They’re responding like, well, juveniles. They wanna do what they wanna do, and if you say you think it’s a bad idea, you’re just being mean.
It seems like it wasn’t that long ago that they screamed that ‘you’re killing the troops if you even think about criticizing The President or America.’
What now? Are they now going to join the Rev. Fred Phelps in singing “Another One Bites the Dust!” at military funerals while burning Qurans?
And pity poor Petraeus. How quickly he was morphed by the right from Ike to Benedict Arnold.
‘Teh Stupid,’ it is deep, deep within us…
I liked Terry Jones better when he was dressing as a lady with Monty Python.
Seems the name Palin has fallen into disgrace too. What happened to those blokes? They used to be cool.
Seriously, though, the “Rev.” Terry Jones is an enormous ass. Sure, he has a right to be an ass. And we have a right to point it out. Don’t know what more can be said, really.
The comments on that website (Weasal Zippers) are unbelievable.
Our poor country is full of fucking nuts. How in the world did it get to be like this?
DB,
It was ever thus. They’ve been with us since the beginning.
It’s just that in earlier times, these people had the decency to stay in the attic, or responsible adults put them there and made sure they stayed there. Now, not only do they run for state and national offices, but the stand a good chance of winning.
We are now, officially, an “Idiotocracy.”
ooops, how very rude of me!
Welcome back, Barbara. I trust you had a nice mini-vaca.
Of course the right would hate rationing. Rationing is giving up something of yours for a greater good, which is SOCIALISM! *dun dun DAHHHHHHHHH!*
And I hope this was a real thing (but you never know with the Internet), but if the KKK was clued into what the Westboro Baptists do at military funerals enough to put out a press release distancing themselves from the WBC, why aren’t more civilized religious leaders around the country posting blogs/writing letters/sermonizing/etc distancing themselves from Terry Jones? Maybe they are and it’s just getting no play on the TV or intertubes? I hope?
Best quote I’ve seen today: “When I feed the poor they call me a saint, but when I ask why the poor are hungry, they call me a communist.†— Dom Helder Camera
Thanks Maha, that video is great, too funny just what I needed after ending my long weekend boycott of cable news, I think I’ll stop watching again.
“There are much more effective ways to fight Islamization and creepin’ sharia in the West”
Yeah that dam Sharia is creepin into all facets of society, just wait next those Imam’s will be petitioning our government to allow Islamic prayer in our public schools, then they will want passages from the Quran posted in public court houses and government buildings. Soon they will be opening mega mosques and broadcasting their hate over cable TeeVee, what ever happened to separation of church and state?
Kudos to Reverend Terry. What better way to sponsor a membership drive than a good Koran burning. Maybe he should toss in some of Book of Mormon to get that blaze really going and attract an even greater assembly of good and faithful Christians.
May the blessings of the Lord be upon us, and establish the work of our hands.
joanr16–I had the same thought. I’d like to see what the real Terry Jones has to say to this impostor. Also:
No it’s not. I suppose if someone were organizing “Burn an American Flag Day,” there would be some point in discussing whether it’s a good idea, but of course no one is. (Personally, the only reason I’d ever want to burn a flag would be if flag-burning was illegal.) Similarly, if anyone was trying to stop “Burn a Quran Day” through legal action rather than appeals to reason and expressions of disgust, then we’d have a First Amendment issue. But of course that isn’t what’s happening.
Exactly. I don’t think righties understand what “rights” are.
I’m afraid that. finally, the politics of enmity have killed our collective spirit and when that dies we turn into brutes. We’ve gone into survivor mode – kill or be killed seems to have become the only principle by which we live.
Barbara mentioned WWII and rationing. I’ve seen that ‘side of the mountain.’ I lived it. Finally, the contrast between that America and this America is an occasion to only weep for what we’ve become.
So tell me, Barbara..
Did you or any of your fellow lefties complain when Newsweak ran that fake story on the Qu’ran flushing that cost lives? Or about the attempts by the Dems ( including Obama) to defund our troops and disparage their commander while they were under fire? Or when Code Pink gave over $600,000 to Moqtada al-Sadr’s Mahdi Army when they were killing our guys in Fallujah? Or the way the Camp Pendleton 8 were treated before they were totally acquitted? Or any of a hundred other items I could mention?
This pastor is doing some damage and I wish he wouldn’t. But let’s just say he’s got plenty of company, and it’s mostly on your side of the fence..
Regards,
Rob Miller @ Joshuapundit
I have family who are career military who have done tours of duty in Iraq, and I am pro-troops if not pro-war. So don’t hang that crap about “you lefties” on me. And regarding Code Pink, I have no use for them and have criticized them for many things. For the most part, Code Pink is an organization of professional narcissists who fake political activism to draw attention to themselves, and I refuse to apologize for them. And I don’t have time to get sucked into the rest of your issues, which have no bearing on the issue at hand.
The main point of the post is that you righties don’t understand what rights are and what the First Amendment actually does. Do you see that there is no First Amendment issue here? Do you see that Gen. Petreaus is not in any way violating anyone’s First Amendment rights by saying what he said? In fact, he was only doing his job by pointing out that civilians were doing something that hurts the war effort. You do know that the military has no authority to order civilians around, do you not?
The secondary point is that the lot of you are a pack of hypocrites who are quick to use your version of “patriotism” to pummel liberals. But when someone requests of you to not indulge in some self-gratifying behavior because it would get troops killed, it’s too much of a bother. The comments at Weasel Zippers (which are not your fault) are absolutely horrific. The mob there would rather throw soldiers under the bus than act like grown-ups.
But thanks for proving my point. It’s extremely juvenile to justify your own bad behavior by whining “you lefties did it first.” Grow up.
That part about “your side of the fence” is absolute crap, but again, thanks for proving my point.
Though I live in Florida, I had never heard of this Terry Jones before the media started highlighting him. Sometimes, I think these individuals never developed the mental capacity to mirror and reflect ideas, which normally develops in children between the ages of 8 to 10. Say a group of Muslims decided to burn Bibles, Mr. Jones. How would that make you feel, hmmm? Now, supposing that we reverse this…
Well, it’s also possible he lacks empathy for anyone who doesn’t hold the same viewpoint. Now then, what do you suppose might happen if everyone felt the same way?
Superb straw-man you set up there. Pity if anything were to happen to it…
I’m not going “bat bonkers” over anything at the moment, let alone burning ancient religious books. You can burn all the books you own for all I care. That doesn’t make it any less religiously divisive, ignorant, and wasteful of good paper.
Further, I don’t “totally” support burning the American flag. I can think of few instances in which it ever makes sense to burn the flag of any country. That doesn’t mean I would try to get government hounds on your case if you started doing it, but likewise I might say something rude about your level of intelligence and ability to make an effective political statement.
As to General Petraeus, he’s just following basic psychological strategy. If your goal is to get cooperation out of people, you probably shouldn’t go around trashing their dominant religion in literally flamboyant ways. It’s perfectly within his rights and capacity as a general to make any kind of statement as to what he thinks is effective and what is counterproductive toward his overall mission. And even if it weren’t, he’d still have to right to make such comments as an ordinary citizen.
Be careful about extrapolating website trends to the country as a whole. Website comments are notoriously unreliable. Often they’re full of sockpuppets (the same writer posting under multiple aliases). Other times you get some serious astroturfing from “concerned” groups who drive a sudden deluge of comments using their entire member base. There are good ways to control and counter this kind of nonsense*, but most sites providing a forum do not use them.
* In case you’re wondering about the technical details, one of the simplest control mechanisms is to disable anonymous posts. Requiring account registration creates a higher barrier to entry, but it’s generally worth it for the improved level of discourse. Of course, the system needs to place meaningful restrictions on the account registration process or it’s useless. For one, it must require one or more unique external identifiers to be tied to each account. Often times, e-mail addresses are used for this. More effective than that would be to use a combination of many identifying factors, including geographic region (derived from IP), browser user-agent, site identifiers set in cookies, registration and post times, and so on. It’s a difficult problem to solve to full satisfaction, and there’s an inherent conflict between the security of knowing you’re not talking to a sock puppet or a bot and the accessibility of allowing anyone to make comments.
Personally, I think any site commenting system should restrict the number of posts that can be made from each identity in each thread. Many times, busy comment threads devolve into meaningless nonsense, often in practice flame wars between just two, three, or four users going back and forth petulantly in an endless tug of war. For a good discussion, people should make their case clearly the first time, respond to major criticisms and comments, and then give it a rest. Trying to convince people who have no interest in listening just creates frustration for everyone, including uninvolved readers.
Is there a name or word that describes the dynamic or syndrome wherein a person deliberately propels themselves into the public eye by the use of totally outrageous and inflammatory rhetoric. I mean something specific and proper, not just calling them”an asshole”. I see so much of it that I wonder if that behavior has been classified in a proper term. The closest I have come to identify that dynamic would be the use of the term screech monkey, but I’m sure that’s not a term used in psychology. Look at me, look at me, somebody please, look at me!
I think in adolescent behavior it might be called acting out because the need in a child is for them to be noticed and responded to…whether it’s negative or positive. Any love is good love!
Whatever the terminology is, this guy Terry Jones is employing that same technique to gain recognition regardless of the consequence.
Swami, I think the technical term is “asshat” although some of the professionals amongst us may wish to be more specific. I await correction.
Swami,
I like either ‘zipperheads’ or ’15 Minute War-ass-hol’s.’
A ‘zipperhead’ is someone who’s a total dick and likes to flash the public their ignorance, stupidity, and/or hatred, just for attention. This 4th rate zipperhead preacher from some jerkwater, run-down strip mall church is going for his one chance at 15 minutes of fame. Pam Geller is an excellent example of how a woman can also be a zipperhead.
Or, ’15 Minute War-ass-hol’s,” because they will sell whatever it is that they have for a soul, for a shot to get their asses some on some TV show.
In truth, they’re kind of inter-related.
‘Asshat’ works for me, too.
Or, the little black cocktail dress of insults – “douchebag.” It’s appropriate for any and every occasion.
Robert Miller ?… ” Ye shall know them by their blogroll”
Firstly, I really doubt most “lefties” read Newsweek (or its bigger cousin Time). Newsweek is owned by the Washington Post Company. Have you read the Washington Post lately…? In any case, I didn’t hear of this story until it was published elsewhere.
Secondly, I thought it was a pretty trivial and dumb thing to publish at the time, regardless of whether it was true. Even if the incident were thoroughly verified (hell, recorded on live video), it’s just helping to flame hatred.
Thirdly, and most critically, the whole controversy over this Quran destruction/desecration nonsense is ignoring a much bigger and much more important reality. Prisoners were (indeed, some still are) being held at Guantanamo Bay and other sites without trial and indeed without any form of due process and continued to be held indefinitely purely at the discretion of the United States. Even more significantly, some of those prisoners were tortured with techniques including waterboarding, menacingly loud music, physical punishment, and other methods. Any such treatment is immoral, contrary to intentional law under the Geneva Conventions, and an unjustified disgrace to an American tradition that goes all the way back to George Washington himself. It should have been thoroughly repudiated at the time, and those responsible should have been charged and taken to trial. It still hasn’t been repudiated even under a new administration, and only a tiny segment of “bad apples” were punished in any way. Flushing or otherwise destroying Qurans indeed incites some hatred, but it’s nothing compared to the overall treatment we have shown to what are in essence, prisoners of war.
Fourthly, many of the prisoners that have been held at one time or another at Guantanamo have been found innocent. A fair number were victims of personal vendettas and liars back in their home country, and for some reason we blindly trusted whatever we were told about them without evidence. Perhaps even more notable is that out of the total prison population, most were never charged with relevant crimes. Relevant in this context would be things like committing terrorist acts, conspiracy to commit such crimes, funding or leading terrorist organizations, and so forth. The majority of those people, and perhaps a strong super-majority, were placed in prison for resisting the military invasion of their country. That’s not a crime, it’s no justification for endless detention, and it sure as hell doesn’t justify torture — nothing does.
Fifthly, the Quran non-story was published by the same man, Michael Isikoff, who originally tried to break the Monica Lewinsky scandal. Newsweek stopped him the first time, and really should have fired him then. A lot of people in the media are looking to drum up this kind of sensational garbage; it’s nothing specific to Newsweek or magazines.
Sixthly, intentionally misspelling the publication’s name is juvenile. You remind me of those who write M$ instead of Microsoft. I don’t like Microsoft any more than the next guy; indeed, I like them a lot less. Yet stooping to trivial antics to score political and social points is foolish and counterproductive to good argumentation and discussion.
The attempt was to defund the war as a whole. Why you conflate that with defunding the troops themselves is unknown and bizarre. You see, if you defund the war, the troops come home. That is, they are taken out of danger.
I suspect sometimes that Code Pink is an organization designed to undermine liberals and progressive causes by making us look insane. In any case, they’re clearly more invested in emotional hijinks and staging stunts than in actually accomplishing anything.
I don’t know whether they gave any monies that ultimately went to Iraq in whatever form you claim. It doesn’t really matter, since the man you cite, evil boogeyman Muqtada al-Sadr, is a rising Shia leader and subsequently called for a cease fire that dramatically reduced violence in the country. This is part of the real successes of the “surge” that occurred behind the scenes. It had little, if anything, to do with the soldiers themselves. With the structure of our military, soldiers can only fight battles. It is diplomacy and strategy that turns enemies into allies.
In any case, what were al-Sadr and his Mahdi army fighting for? Why, the withdrawal of occupation forces from Iraq and the establishment of a new reform government. Such horrible, evil goals, those. Who would ever want to have an occupying army removed from their country? Americans just can’t understand that sentiment — no sir.
They were accused of murder, kidnapping, and conspiracy. Are you this reflexively soft on crime generally, or only when the perpetrator(s) are soldiers?
The charges were clearly not baseless considering several of the defendants entered into plea deals. Lance Corporal Jerry Shumate plead guilty to aggravated assault and conspiracy to obstruct justice. (In exchange, charges on murder, kidnapping, assault and conspiracy were dropped.) Lance Cpl. Robert Pennington plead guilty to conspiracy and kidnapping. (In exchange, charges of murder, larceny, and housebreaking were dropped.) Pennington’s sentence was 8 years in jail, though he was granted clemency (why and by whom?) and released in 2007. Sgt. Lawrence G. Hutchins III was found guilty of unpremeditated murder. The original sentence was 15 years, now reduced to 11, and is under appeal.
What was it that got you so riled up over this prosecution and treatment exactly? The defendants being shackled for a short time? That’s small potatoes compared to torture my friend. Are you asserting that they were innocent, even now? On what evidence?
I doubt you actually have a hundred other items of any significance to mention. Even so, if they’re anything like these, don’t bother. They’re discrediting you pretty badly.
Let’s have a national Terry Jones day, when we can all dress like clowns and bite the heads off chickens. Don’t take the schmuck and his fellow fools seriously, but televise a roast of the dope for the world to see, kinda like “Wipe Out” meets bevis and Butthead, with chimps flinging poop at the audience.It’s embarasking to be a Floridian…
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Steven Stralka said, “Personally, the only reason I’d ever want to burn a flag would be if flag-burning was illegal.”
I’ve been saying that since the Reagan days.
As long as I am Free to burn the US flag, I do not feel compelled to do so, but the second it’s illegal, then it’s my Patriotic Duty as a Free and Independent American to burn every flag (safely).
Re flag-burning: it is not only legal, it is the officially approved way to dispose of worn-out flags. (What, are you going to throw our nation’s flag into the trash?) The trick is that it should be done respectfully. In one case some publicity-seekers did so disrepectfully; and the Senate took the bait.
Which makes me wonder; what is the religiously-correct way to dispose of worn-out Qurans? Or Bibles? Or Torahs? Or Diamond Sutras?
when Newsweak ran that fake story on the Qu’ran flushing that cost lives?
Robert, you conveniently forget where that fake story originated: from within G.W. Bush’s Dept of Defense.
Not only do you not have an accurate scorecard of who’s on the Left, you’re confused (or more likely deceptive) about players on the Right.